Posters, Protests, Perspectives: On the Freedom of Art

Amira El Ahl:

Hello and welcome to a new episode of “Die Kulturmittler:innen”, the ifa podcast on foreign cultural policy. My name is Amira El Ahl and I'm very happy to have you with me again for this episode. “Once We Were Trees, Now We Are Birds” is the title of the exhibition at the ifa Gallery in Berlin.

Works by 50 different artists are being exhibited there and amongst other things, the works deal with migration policy, anti-Muslim racism and the rise of authoritarian forces. The artists are fellows of the Martin Roth-Initiative, a joint project by ifa and the Goethe-Institut. The aim of the Martin Roth-Initiative is to protect artists and cultural actors whose work is restricted by state or non-state actors by offering temporary relocation stays and enabling them to continue their work.

My guest in today's episode is the curator and author Anna Karpenko. She was born in Minsk in Belarus and currently lives and works in Berlin and Leipzig. She is one of the curators of the exhibition at the ifa Gallery and I would like to talk to her about the exhibition about artistic freedom and working in exile.

Welcome to „Die Kulturmittler:innen“, Anna Karpenko.  

 

Anna Karpenko: 
Thank you so much, Amira. Thank you for having me.

 

Amira El Ahl:

It's a pleasure to have you. Anna, what inspired the title “Once We Were Trees, Now We Are Birds”? It's very poetic.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

I mean, actually, that's the question that should be addressed to Emrah Gökdemir, the beloved co-curator of mine. And we have been working on this show together with Emrah, together with Muhammad Salah and together with Thibaut de Ruyter, who is the curator and the architect of the show. So, the title actually came during the brainstorm from Emrah, because this is the part of the very ancient beliefs from his native region, from Antakya. And this is the very beautiful and unfortunately completely destroyed after the earthquake of 2023 land. And according to this ancient belief, the dove sings, “oh, alastra, oh tree, once we were trees, now we are birds.” And I mean, we all agreed during the work of the show and, I don't know, choosing the title that we didn't want to be very direct, replicating some direct approaches concerning exile, displacement, wars, repressive systems and so on, because we are all a little bit sick of it.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

I can imagine, yeah. But how does this title reflect the themes of the exhibition?  

 

Anna Karpenko:  

This title, I guess, also reflects in a way the liminal character of the problems and of the phenomenon's that we would like to represent, both within the show and within the festival. And that's why we are very grateful to all artists and participants of this project, because, I mean, it's not only the visual artists and performers, it's also poets and writers and activists and designers in a way. So this liminality, like not being rooted anymore with your land, but also not yet being implemented into this new, I don't know, society or arrangement or the new context and area, which is not actually very new, because if you look back or if you ask the participants of this project, practically everybody has been working with Germany more or less before. But when you are replaced, this experience can be described as a new one, you know, it's a completely different feeling when you cannot come back to your country anymore.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

You just said like there's so many people that came together, so many artists that came together for this project from so many different backgrounds, artistic backgrounds, but also from so many different countries, like 50 artists who shared in this experience. How did this artistic collaboration work? Maybe you can give us like an insight in how you and your co-curators developed this exhibition and maybe share some special moments.

 

Anna Karpenko:

Yeah, sure. That was a really a blessing time working together, because we have been started last year in October and we were invited, three of us, Emrah, me and Mohamed, to come to ifa for a first meeting and I was very surprised to see Muhammad and Emrah, because both I knew before, because with Muhammad we were together in Berlin in 2018, because we both were recipients of ifa-CCP programme scholarship and with Emrah we have been based in Leipzig working together in an artistic curatorial tour. And the first selection for the participants was made by Thibaut de Ruyter, by Inka Gressel, the director of ifa Gallery, and by Per Brandt, who was the deputy director of MRI program. And it was not an easy selection, because for MRI it was the first attempt to make the offline show on this very, I would say, also sensitive topic and in a sensitive format, because, you know, for many participants it's still dangerous to be publicly visible, it's still dangerous to speak freely and openly, even being settled in Berlin nowadays or in any other cities in Germany. So yeah, it was a very interesting experience, because we had, I mean, we split the 50 participants between three of us and every curator had personal conversations and developing the works with 10 artists. And yeah, I was personally really blessed to meet amazing people whose names I never heard before, and that's also the problem, I don't know, in a way of Berlin art scene nowadays, because, you know, that there are another show of great Yoko Ono at the National Gallery, but you could hardly see or find the name of Iranian or Sudanese or Iraqi artist or Afghani poets.

I mean, you can, but not so well visible.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Yes, you have to really search for that.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You have to really fight for that.

 

Amira El Ahl:

So there's two questions I have, but let's start with the first. So you just said it's difficult when you have these sensitive topics and these sensitive circumstances, obviously. So how do you approach curating works that deal with such sensitive topics, such as political suppression and human rights violations, and where also the artists are still often in danger?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You know, I think that we all were very honest with each other because most of the artists with whom I had conversations, they also agreed that, you know, even this terminology like artists in exile or curators in exile or anybody in exile is not working anymore. You know, it's a kind of stigmatization that is being used for decades for now. And, you know, I can mention here one example. I mean, it's not from this particular project, but I think it's very referential to our discussion. Yesterday I came to the artist talk of Aslan Goisum at KINDLE Berlin. And he's the artist who was born in Grozny in Chechnya. But he is a kind of really successful young artist, also like living in Berlin for many years and, I don't know, having a show at Tate and so on. And what he mentioned besides other things is that he has works that he made during his lifetime still in Grozny in Chechnya, but he didn't want to show these artworks in any show or at any institution that is working with the topics of wars, exile, replacement, migration and so on. Because then the works will be not represented as the works themselves, but just with this and other stigmatization around or just because of your citizenship. And I think that this is very common to what we also discussed with the artists of this show, because nobody really wants to be invited to any exhibition or the project as an Afghani artist or Belarusian artist or, I don't know, just the artist from Sudan because of the territory, because of your passport. But I think we all would like to be estimated and to be treated, first of all, because our artistic practice and that's very rare for this kind of project. And I really hope that this exhibition tried - at least - it was an attempt to avoid this. And I think that we really had a very supportive atmosphere from ifa Gallery and from Inka personally and from all MRI team who gave us really like total freedom in expression.

And also in the very sensitive case, because we were, I mean, against all odds, we also showed because we really want to show the works of Palestinian artists and it was super important for us.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

So you already alluded to this a little bit, but maybe you can share with us what this exhibition means for you personally, because, you know, there are so many points you just touched upon, like that exile. And you said once in an interview, I think with the Goethe-Institut about this exhibition that you do not like this word exile. I think you just explained why, because of the stamp, because of the stigmatism that it gets. But what does it, did it mean for you personally to curate this, to be part of this experience?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You know, I will tell you also, I will share one example from my life, because it's really a joke, especially in this context, talking about artists in exile or curators in exile. First of all, I'm not a curator in exile.

I never mentioned myself as it. So, it was not the political cases why I came to Germany. And I mean, I started here, I graduated from HGB in Leipzig. I was very happy to have an experience to study at Beatrice von Bismarck's class. It was really a very important experience in my life. But, you know, when in 2000, I don't remember, 17 or 18, I came to Berlin within this CrossCulture Programme at ifa.

And I was at, I mean, I'm doing my internship at the institution called Berlin Art Institute, like partly commercial, partly non-commercial institution. And I was there actually with Muhammad together and we had different activities and among them was also visiting studios of different artists, also galleries and so on. So, once we came with the visit to Barbara Wien Gallery and during the time she had an amazing show of Michael Rakowitz, the artist that I truly love and admire.

So, she gave us a really wonderful tour through the show and I also asked some questions and I made just occasional photos on my old iPhone. After that, I came back to Minsk, you know, like living my ordinary life because in comparison with Berlin, to make an exhibition in Minsk, you should work as somebody else. I mean, I have been doing all of my life different PR projects just to provide myself with some money for living and also to publish books, to make shows and so on.

Couple of months later, somebody reached me via email asking, Hello Anna, this is the personal assistant of Barbara Wien. We would like to use your photo for Wikipedia page of Barbara, of the gallery. So, we need your complete yes for Wikipedia and sure, it's for free. Thank you so much, blah, blah, blah. Hello and Auf Wiedersehen. I mean, sure, I said, yes, you are very welcome to use this photo. But by the way, I'm a curator from Belarus, partly working in Berlin. Would be very nice to meet and I don't know, also shortly introduce myself. You know, I didn't say that, but by the way, this photo is still on the page of Barbara Wien gallery.

 

But, you know, this situation from my life vividly expresses this very interesting dynamic of hospitality of this exile and not exile problem of what doesn't mean to be a foreigner still in Berlin. What does it mean to be recognized because of your professional practice? You know, so that's why answering your question about the, I don't know, the role of this project. It was super important for me to bring some critical approach to this project.

That's why, together with Emrah and Muhammad and Thibaut, we were really happy also to be stuck in this very poor medium that poster is. You know that the exhibition is framed as the set of different posters that were delivered by the artists. So it's not like the proper artistic work, but rather then the combination of the text and the visual images, you know, bringing also some critical approach to this topic of artists in exile or sheltering programs. Because, you know, nobody knows, and nobody asks which kind of life the artist or the writers or the video makers lives when they left Berlin for this kind of exchanging project. Or what's their situation when this sheltering program is over and they cannot come back to the home countries, and they need to stay later in Germany. And yeah, I mean, all of these issues and, you know, you will never be treated as the proper curator, you know.

Also, you can apply lots of applications to receive a job or to receive a position at Berlin art institutions. But believe me, all of these positions will be occupied by the people from the Netherlands, from France, from Western Germany. And this is the problem, not with the last five years, it's actually like last two decades, same situation and no changes at all.

 

Amira El Ahl:

Hopefully this will change on one point because, I mean, you're really making a case for this, which is very important. But what I really liked, maybe just for the people who haven't seen the exhibition yet quickly, because the posters, I mean, this is on two levels a very interesting idea. Because a.) you can print a poster or send the files from wherever you are. So, it's like an easy access, I assume, you know, for anybody, wherever they are in the world. And I also like the idea very much that you could take the posters with you. So, if you're visiting the exhibition, the audience, the guests can take a poster with them home.

So, it's kind of like, you know, it gets more and the idea of this art spreads and like stays. And it's not just like limited to a certain time where the exhibition takes place, but actually it lives on, which I think is very, very nice. And it's a very old medium.

 

Anna Karpenko:

Yeah, it's the medium that has the history. That's why it was also important to, I don't know, to refer somehow to this history of protests. You know, that posters is the easiest medium that you can produce.

You can take it, and you can go to demonstrate your civil rights.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Exactly. It's very nice. But talking about civil rights, which brings me to another point I wanted to talk with you about, which is artistic freedom. Because, you know, protest and all of this is kind of intertwined. It all belongs together. And we already said that, you know, the Martin Roth-Initiative supports artists at risk from repression. And so, you have been collaborating with all these artists from all around the world. From this experience and also from your own experience, how do you assess the current state of artistic freedom in the world?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Yeah, good question.

 

Amira El Ahl:

It's a big question, I know.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Yeah, good and sad. You know, I'm reflecting on this a lot and also discussing that with my friends and colleagues, because I think that nowadays we have simultaneously two situations.

So, one is this artistic bubble when we are all so obsessed of what's going on within just the artistic sense, you know. Lack of money, overworking, precarious things and so on. And so forth, you know, when I hear something like “me as an artist” and I think, okay, so is it really the very important identification that we are all seeking, you know, like to be an artist, to me as a curator? I really hate it nowadays because the second situation that we have all in our life is the situation that we are living in the wartime.

We are witnessing the genocide. We are witnessing of censorship and really the stop of any freedom, not only the artistic freedom. I mean, the human rights activists or journalists can be kidnapped easily just from the streets or being killed, a target from the airstrike attacks.

And I mean, which kind of artistic freedom then we are discussing? You know what I mean. I mean, it cannot be extracted from the whole context of the global situation that we are witnessing nowadays. I mean, I cannot imagine the feelings of Muhammad, for example, doing this show in Berlin in a still quite a safe place and reading the news of what's going on in Khartoum, the city he was born and raised when everything, literally everything is destroyed. And this topic is hardly covered by any European media nowadays.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

I was going to say, where is he reading this news? Because, I mean, in Germany, it's hardly in the news.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Exactly.

 

Amira El Ahl:

And it's very difficult to find.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

And also about the artistic freedom, you know, I think we all agree now that we cannot talk about artistic freedom only in Berlin nowadays, because we are facing in a way with a kind of censorship revealing these or that topics. And yeah, this exhibition is also like the way or at least the attempt to reflect on the questions of propaganda, because, you know, these short messages and the posters that were highly used, for example, after the early avant-garde ages during the 20s and 30s in the Soviet times.

That's also the case why it was so easily and effectively appropriated by any government, you know, because it's something that is working directly with your consciousness. So, the messages can be easily transferred to recipient.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Yeah, which is really a great, it's a great medium that you chose for this exhibition.

So, if I could understand you correctly, you would say that you cannot distinguish between artistic freedom and freedom in general, like freedom that encompasses all the other areas of life. There was a study by ifa conducted, was titled “The Fragile Triangle of Artistic Freedom”, and it discusses the challenges in monitoring and documenting artistic freedom globally. And one of its key recommendations of this study is to strengthen the creation of networks through funding. And interviewees for the study also mentioned that mutual collaboration works well. So, something that you're doing, I guess, with your exhibition. But from your perspective, how can artistic collaboration strengthen artistic freedom or how can exhibitions and transnational networks contribute to strengthening artistic freedom?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

I think it's great that still at least somebody is doing this kind of research, you know, also asking people what does it mean for them to have artistic freedom and, you know, to build this network.

But I see one problem, at least one problem in creating this kind of network, because after the large-scale invasion of Ukraine, for example, in 2022, I'm also observing that the reaction, at least within the Berlin arts and on the issues of wars from different communities, you know, how the communities of Iranian people, Afghani people, how the communities of Ukrainian people, Belarusian people, Russian people, Sudanese people, Turkish people, all over the world, you know, that how it's possible to share or to feel the other's pain, you know, because sometimes everybody is so focused just on the pain that they have. So, it's only our war, it's only our pain, it's only our destructions, but it's never only something local. And if you don't have the, you know, the empathy also to feel the other's pain, and that's why I'm against making this kind of national shows. I really don't like it, because I think that the world has never been so global as it is now.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Yeah, and it's interesting what you say and what you said before, because it kind of feels when you're dividing people into their nationalities, it's kind of you have to fight for the little attention that is there, for the funds that are there. So, it's not becoming something that you do together as a group of, you know, artists who all seek the same thing. It becomes now a division between the people who are exiled from Afghanistan, as you said, or from the Ukraine, and we have to fight for the little attention and funds that are there.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's just the replication of the same repressive mechanisms that all people have or had in their countries that they were forced to leave, because this is this mechanism of fighting for your rights, for fighting for, I don't know, the financial support or to be recognized by the new society or something like that.

But, you know, if you look at the, not only at the peculiarities of every context, but also on the very basic structural mechanisms of power and oppression, it's the same mechanisms, how the people are oppressed by these repressive systems that you cannot move freely, you cannot create something freely. I mean, in Belarus, for example, one of the very famous artists, Ales Puschkin, he was just killed in the prison, you know, and there are artists, for example, I mean, I cannot name him, unfortunately, because of safety reason, but this is the very famous performer artist from Sao Paulo in Brazil, and within the exhibition we are showing the precise documentation of his work, that he was arrested just from the street by the military police in Sao Paulo, and he was also imprisoned for this performance, standing naked on the streets in Sao Paulo. What I wanted to say that, sure, we are feeling the very individual pains, but if we are doing this common struggle for some common values, we should recognize these common mechanisms of oppression, and really fight not against each other, but against these mechanisms, and sometimes I see that people are canceling each other just because of their passports, you know.

 

Amira El Ahl:

Yeah, that's difficult. So, when we're talking, I know you don't like the word exile, but let's stick to the term, because we all know what is meant. What would you say are the impacts of creating and exhibiting work in exile, especially when artists are under surveillance or threat, you know, you just said like this, it's not, sometimes you cannot even say the names of people, because they are still under threat, even if they manage to leave their home country.

countries. So even outside, you know, their country, there is this pressure and the threat. Does it change how you approach your work, also as a curator?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You mean, exhibiting something within German context, being, I don't know, a foreigner here?  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Yeah, I mean, coming from, I mean, like these artists, you know, who are in, like, who are all recipients of a program that protects them, because there are artists at risk. You would think as an outsider, okay, now you're in Germany, you should be safe. You can do whatever you want.  

But I don't think… it's not true.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You know, I mean, as you just said, because it will never be true, because we all remember, you know, I mean, sometimes I think that I'm living in a permanent deja vu situations, because I remember at documenta 14 in 2017, and amazing work of Olu Oguibe, you know, this monument for foreigners and strangers. Yes. And we can also say that all the story that happened after that, that the monument was erected on the Königplatz in Kassel, and then it was finally replaced.  

And there was a huge discussion. And then we all remember what also happened during the next Documenta with ruangrupa. And this is also, you know, this is another layer.  

So we are not talking about exile. Now we are talking about the foreign artists and curators, by the way, based also in Germany, invited and hosted by internationally recognized institutions or festivals or exhibitions. And, you know, this is this very strange politics of hospitality.  

So it's another topic and another layer of the term exile, but you know..

 

Amira El Ahl:

… of not fitting in…

 

Anna Karpenko:

… Right, right, right. But you know, I'm referring here to that because I think that in a way, this is the very interweaving issues. I mean, the issue of hospitality and the issue of exile, because the precise, you know, term of exile is like changing the positions, you know, like changing the places, because when you are replaced, it's like that. I mean, it's not changing the countries. You can, one can feel himself or herself as an exile, also living in your own country.  

You know, it's just this, this mechanisms of marginalization in a way or extraction or anything else. But I think that I once mentioned in this interview at Goothe Institute that I really appreciate and kind of reopened for myself the writings of Edward Said and his reflections on exile, because, you know, what he defines is also like against this direct approach of exile, just as a replacement, because he once mentioned that for once for whom the whole world is the foreign land, so this person could be really the free person. And, you know, I think it's very important to keep this also distance, you know, to the land or to the area that you are living currently, whatever it is. Your homeland, or it's your hosted land that invited you to come and settled. But, you know, in the time of these new propaganda waves and strategies, it's very important to preserve this critical approach and to keep this distance, to treat anything as a little bit of foreign.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

That's interesting, because that also means the concept of home becomes a different… it's different, you know, like, as you said, you can feel also foreign in your own country. But as a foreign artist, I guess it must be very important to, you know, like also for your artistic expression to have a concept of home, or maybe it's good not to have a concept of home. I don't know.  

I mean, it's something when you move around when you are in different countries, I guess it also changes the way you approach your artistic expression.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

I think it's super important and actual topic for many artists nowadays, because, you know, there are two strategies. There are the artists and curators, and I mean any cultural workers who are leaving their countries to become an artist on the Western world or somewhere else. And, you know, this is… that was the very popular and widely spread strategy for decades, and also from the beginning of the 20th century, you know, with also the avant-garde exchanges and movements and so on.  

But the practically, I don't know, 99% of the artists of our show, when we asked the question, do you treat… I don't know… Germany as your homeland, or I mean, you cut all the roots with your home, because I mean, it was also, you know, in many cases, it was really the trauma experience. And I mean, all people said that, yeah, we're super grateful that we are in a safe place and space, and Germany is great in many like also, you know, social protective things and so on, and cultural scene and many, many other things. But I'm still a guy from Antakya. I'm still very rooted and very connected with Belarusian land and culture. I will never, I mean, I never wanted to live anywhere else but in Minsk, where I was born, and I mean, I worked a lot abroad, but I always come back to my country, it was very important.  

And that's something, you know, in this global time, I think it's something valuable for many people that home is something that you valued as home. It's not about the geographical place, but still, this very archaic mechanism of belonging. And again, I'm encouraging everybody to read Edward Said's Reflections on Exile, because he really, you know, these last days of his life, when he came back to Jerusalem, just to feel his land, his home, it's something very touching.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

It's this longing, and it's something that you carry inside, no matter how long you are living.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Absolutely. So you can be a bird, but you would like to come back to your, yes, exactly to your home as a tree.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Exactly. That's a very nice picture.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

I'm always laughing that, okay, so please just make a coffin from the best Belarusian tree, but send me to my home country.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

It's, it's interesting how much it is kind of ingrained in you, for some reason, even if you don't want to. That brings me to my next question, which is connected, because what do you think, what role does a host country's cultural landscape play in shaping or supporting the artistic expression of an exiled artist? Because you have to deal with, as you just mentioned, these two big examples, Documenta and the cultural landscape of a country does something with you when you are living in it and working in it.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Oh, Amira, I think it's a really sensitive question.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

Then let's say that you don't have to answer it if you don't want to.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Because, you know, I mean, I'm not talking about, I mean, I'm mostly working with the Eastern European perspective, as it's possible to call it like that. But I remember very vividly the case of Okwui Enwezor  and Haus der Kunst and how he was treated in the Bavarian media, how he was reached with the accusation of he didn't master German language well enough to speak German language fluently after all of this years that he spent and really transformed the politics of art in Germany, not only at Haus der Kunst, but also this brilliant documenta that he curated with the brilliant team. And you know that, I mean, in a way, it was like at least 10 years ago. But, you know, these problems and these issues are circulating all the time.  

And I mean, I don't know, speaking about surroundings, I'm observing now the strategy for the big Berlin art institutions, which kind of connections Hamburger Bahnhof has with Chanel Foundation really to support also the local artists. You know how many friends of mine and artists based in Berlin cannot afford themselves to rent the studio to make their art? How many of them just leave Germany because they cannot afford to rent the proper apartment or to pay for the medical insurance?  

I mean, we're talking about this very privileged artistic bubble, but there are hundreds and thousands of cultural workers all over Germany. And I'm not talking about the well-established artists. It's also, for example, the workers of the communal galleries in Berlin whose salaries are so low that it's just incomparable with the chic and happy IT-children, you know, spending nice time in Prenzlauer Berg cafes.  

So, it's also about the artistic surrounding. It's also about the context of the countries. And I'm not even now speaking about the right-wing politics because, you know, I'm partly based in Saxony and I'm observing this every day, really. But there is something that is going on not in a right way also in Germany. I never thought that I will observe something like that in Germany, you know, because I thought that, OK, I'm leaving Belarus because of that, because of the lack of artistic freedom. But now I'm facing the same here.  

So, yeah, it's something that we should cope with together and I hope that we will manage somehow. And yeah, but speaking about also the context, I think that still the strongest part of German art community is definitely this networking things. You know, people still can gather together and do something together and, you know, fighting for their rights.  

 

Amir El Ahl:

It’s  important to talk about this and to pinpoint it because there is no, you know, just to always shy about it. It's not the right way. You have to really talk about it.  

This brings me to my last question. Do you think, that's a big question, but do you think that art can serve as a bridge in divided societies, because you just mentioned, you know, Saxony, the right-wing tendencies in this country that are increasing. So, do you think that art has the power to bridge divided societies?  

And if so, how? Or do you think it's too much to ask of art and artists?  

 

Anna Karpenko:

You know, I think it's never too much to ask. But another question is what we call art, you know, I saw an interview, I think it was from Chemnitz. And the local citizen was asked, what does she treat as art or as a culture?  And she mentioned something like, okay, we are so obsessed and we really like when the New Year tree is lightning. You know, we should be very sober, and we should be very real what outside of artistic bubble people are marking and defining as art for themselves. And I think that for nowadays, this gap is really big. And it's really large between what we are imagining people are thinking about art and what the audience is thinking about it, you know. And I think in a way, it's a kind of very challenging time. Also, in this process of mediation, as you mentioned, whether art can be a bridge, or it can be the tube, or it can be just a gap, or the empty space, which is also, in a way, possible and also okay, you know, to find yourself surrounded by this emptiness, not pretending anymore that you can solve some social or political issues, because we can't. But we should do something valuable, going a little bit beyond also this narcissistic tendencies, as defining yourself, me as an artist, or me as a curator. No, me as a human. I think that's the starting point for all art projects.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

That's such a wonderful thing to say. And it's so true. Thank you so much, Anna, for this last sentence, because it's really beautiful.  

And thank you for your time and for being with us today and for these insights. It's been a pleasure.  

 

Anna Karpenko:

Thank you for the invitation.  

 

Amira El Ahl:

If you enjoyed this episode, please recommend us to others. We would be happy. And if you would like to have even more input on this subject, then I highly recommend the episode with Sverre Pedersen from Freemuse about artistic self-censorship. The occasion for our discussion was the Freemuse Report State of Artistic Freedom 2025. It's a really interesting discussion we had a little while ago. And I also recommend the episode with the Burmese author and political activist Ma Thida, who was herself a Martin Roth-Initiative scholarship holder. You can also find out more about ifa and our projects on our social media channels. On Instagram, you will find the profile with a handle at ifa.de and on LinkedIn as ifa – Institut für Auslandsbeziehungen. And if you have any questions or comments, please send us an email to podcast@ifa.de. With that, I say goodbye. My name is Amira El Ahl. Thank you so much for listening and until next time, hopefully!