Deep Dive: Afghanistan's Struggle for Human Rights

Tobias Rohe: Hello and welcome back to Die Kulturmittler:innen Deep Dive – Experts on international cultural relations. My name is Tobias. It's a pleasure to be with you again and warm welcome to my guest today, Emran Feroz. 

Emran Feroz: Nice to be with you. 

Tobias Rohe: Thanks for being on this podcast Emran. Now in this episode, we want to talk about human rights issues.

As we all know, they remain a global concern with challenges varying across regions marginalized groups including women, minorities, and refugees, often face systemic oppression and violence. Emran Feroz, you are a journalist and a book author, and you regularly report from and about Afghanistan for media such as Die Zeit, Al Jazeera, New York Times, and ifa's own online magazine, Quantara.de, and having an Austrian Afghan background you recently published a book on your life between these two worlds, central Europe and the Hindu Kush. 'Vom Westen nichts Neues', it is called together. We will look at the situation in Afghanistan in this episode.

Now human rights issues in Afghanistan are marked by a complex interplay of political instability, cultural practices, and restrictive policies, particularly under the Taliban regime. Emran Feroz, can you give us a general overview of the current human rights situation in Afghanistan? 

Emran Feroz: Sure. I mean, unfortunately, the current human rights situation in Afghanistan is absolutely disastrous.

Since Taliban take over, the regime is busy with building its own, totalitarian dictatorship. And in such systems, as you might know, human rights do not really exist. So whatever human rights violations one can imagine, it is happening in Afghanistan, but unfortunately the focus decreased. You know, we have conflicts all around the globe and many people tend to forget Afghanistan now. It's also difficult to report from the country. It's difficult for human rights activists to enter and to observe, and for that reason we do not hear much. 

Tobias Rohe: What specific international human rights treaties are being violated by the current policies in, in Afghanistan? Can you say that? 

Emran Feroz: Yes. I mean, we just had another bad news from the country regarding the situation of woman education and just a few days ago, the Taliban regime announced that also medical education for females isn't allowed. So since 2022, almost two years ago, the Taliban declared a total university ban for women. And before that there was also an ongoing ban regarding higher education. And now we even have it for the medical education. And this is just like another reason why people talk about gender apartheid when it comes to Afghanistan.

So half of the population is not having its rights, the girls and the women, and obviously a lot of people are talking about that, but also in other branches, for example, when it comes to torture, when it comes to extra judicial killings, all these things are happening. The question should be, which violations do the Taliban do not conduct in terms of human rights?

And unfortunately, you won't find much. 

Tobias Rohe: And women are particularly affected. 

Emran Feroz: Absolutely. 

Tobias Rohe: But we also hear that despite restrictions, there have been reports of women protesting for their rights in various ways, which is, well not evident after, after all you said. What do the protests exactly look like in Afghanistan by the women?

Emran Feroz: Yes, the protests we could see during the last three years were mostly in urban areas, especially in Kabul. They were not really large scale, for obvious reasons. The Taliban crushed such protests and used harsh violence against women and against all participants, also against journalists who try to cover such protests. But it's still happening. We just saw it recently, I mean, in this week when the new education ban was declared and when the Taliban entered all these medical institutes and said: 'Hey, listen, it's over now, go home.' You could see that a lot of women were sad, but also a lot of them were tried to protest and they were not happy.

They were angry for good reason. And the thing is that, you know, although the protests are not large scale for different reasons, you could see that people are having enough. Women are having enough, and they still try to find ways to protest. Also, when it comes to the internet and social media, you see a lot of new forms of protest that you could not witness during the first Taliban regime because all these technological developments, uh, did not exist back then.

But you can see that people try to use social media to organize themselves, or even if it's just one person using TikTok or Instagram or X and sharing a video, how she's walking on the streets singing, which happened a few weeks ago because of another ban that Taliban declared. All of this is protest and it is reaching the people all around the world.

And I think that's one of the good things that Afghanistan, even if the Taliban will try to do that, it cannot happen that it turns into a black box again. Like it was the case in the 1990s. 

Tobias Rohe: And you think that has got to do with the technological possibilities right now? 

Emran Feroz: Yes. I think that's crucial. That's crucial, yeah. 

Tobias Rohe: Let's take a look at one case that happened in Iran in 2022, Jina Mahsa Amini's death, which was internationally were recognized. Since this case, we can observe a large protest movement that includes diverse groups such as men of different ages. What is the position of men regarding the oppression of women in Afghanistan and to what extent are they trying to get involved?

Emran Feroz: So the thing is that the Taliban built a very complex repressive system. For example, if you have girls or woman. Who stand out of line, the people who will firstly be punished will be the male relatives, like the fathers or the brothers. Or the husbands. And because of that system, it has become kind of a paradox and difficult for men to stand up properly, I would say, because everything is connected with each other. However, I have to underline that: I mean, I know that often you hear people saying, you know where the Afghan men, where's their protest? And so on. Actually, Afghan men did protest. I mean, even in the first days after Taliban return, I talked to female demonstrators who, you know, stood up against Taliban on the streets and they themselves underlined.

They said yes. Men were also with us. For example, an activist from the city of Hera in the west of the country told me that men supported them on the streets and men took the beating of the Taliban and tried to protect the woman. You could even see that in rural areas of Afghanistan, which are known for being very conservative and orthodox, you could see that old man like, you know, with beards and turbines went on the street to protest for the rights of their girls to go to school. So even that took place and you could see that there is even a shift in rural areas taking place. And that in such areas it must be men who tried to, to protest and to participate in these things.

So also today a lot of men are involved in these protests, but it's kind of in the darkness because everyone tries to protect himself and herself. But overall, one of the reasons why men are also facing so many problems is because of the complex Taliban restrictions. 

Tobias Rohe: I see. Let's take a look outside of Afghanistan. Cause especially after the Taliban came to power, many Afghans fled abroad. So there's large diaspora right now. So in what ways can this Afghan diaspora contribute to fostering international cultural relations that promote human rights and counter Taliban narratives?

Emran Feroz: I think what the Afghan diaspora really needs is to come together. It's very heterogeneous and there are a lot of different people, ethnicities, thoughts, political backgrounds, but I think it's important for them to come together and also to get rid of the problems of the past. But it's also important to be honest and straight.

And what I mean with that is that we have to ask ourselves, who is responsible for the current situation? How did it happen that the Taliban return and that we are in such a situation? A large chunk of responsibility goes to the Afghan Republican elites who also left the country in 2021. And I think that a lot of these people lost a lot of credibility.

And what I am also witnessing every day is that a lot of these people try to get resources, try to get money, try to get foreign support, but not for the interest of the Afghan people, just for their own interests. Like it happened in the last 20 years before the US withdrawal. So what diaspora also needs to do is to get rid of these people.

You have to focus on the very clean agenda, and with that and with more interconnection between each other, you also could start to lobby for your people inside the country who are trapped with the Taliban. But I think it's very unfortunate that, for example, in Germany, you will not find a really good Afghan group of diaspora people, which is able to lobby for its people inside the country and outside the country on the refugee roots and so on. And one of the reasons why this is happening is because a lot of these diaspora groups, they are too busy with fighting each other. And I think if you stop this, you can also build proper counter narratives.

Tobias Rohe: And how could this kind of lobbying look like? 

Emran Feroz: I mean, in the case of Germany, you can see it very well now with the so-called ‘Bundesaufnahmeprogramm’ of the foreign ministry, which has literally stopped since the coalition is done. I have a lot of colleagues and friends and people who are still trapped inside Afghanistan or in the region, in Iran and in Pakistan.

And these people are waiting to get rescued. And it is not happening because in Germany particularly, you have a lot of far-right media outlets, also quite very conservative media outlets who try to exploit the so-called refugee issue and who make Afghan refugees as the main scapegoat for everything.

And that's a problem. And then it's happening. But I don't see real lobbying against that from the Afghan diaspora. I don't see it. I mean, there are many small groups all over the country, but I don't see that they do really anything effective. And I think we have had enough time during the last three years to build a proper group to lobby, but it didn't happen.

And yeah that's unfortunate. 

Tobias Rohe: So let's take a step back and look at the international level. Shall we. Many international bodies as a fact have condemned the Taliban's actions. What concrete steps have the UN taken human rights organization and foreign governments? How do they, or did they address the human rights situation in Afghanistan, including the USA and Germany?

Emran Feroz: Yes, regarding the international community, I think that, especially in the region, but even like even in Western countries, unfortunately, you have many political players who have come to the conclusion that: 'okay, the Afghans, they wanted the Taliban, it seemed, so we have to handle somehow with it and with them and with the regime. And maybe even accept it.' And if you compare the current Taliban regime with the regime of the nineties, you would notice that although not a single state did recognize the Taliban government, but a lot of states, many states started to cooperate with them. During the last years, the Taliban took over many embassies abroad. Not just in the region, I mean. You know, also far away, like in Turkey, like in the United Arab Emirates and also in Russia. So you have more and more Taliban personal that is taking over. And now there are even some rumours that this is going to happen in Germany. Recently we saw that leading diplomats from the Republican era who were working in the embassy here in Berlin and also the general consulate in Bonn, they quit working because of German pressure.

So what does this mean? Does it mean that the Germans are going to accept the Taliban in a way? That would be problematic. And on the other hand, I understand that it's difficult to stop every kind of cooperation because people in Afghanistan are suffering. People are dying from hunger and so on. So you have to handle it somehow.

But I think the international community is still looking for the right approach to do it. And from the American side, I think it's, it has been very disastrous because they just put the country under on the sanctions and the United Nations put some Taliban members on the no-fly list. I'm sure a lot of them do not care about that.

And the sanctions themselves, they do not hit key members of the Taliban regime. They just hit average Afghans. And that's a problem. And the thing is that the international community, Germany, the United States, all of them, they have to come together to find a proper approach.

But I think that unfortunately, this moment is gone. Policy makers are not simply interested in Afghanistan anymore, in Germany and also in other countries. They're just interested into the country when it comes to the deportation of Afghan refugees, which is very unfortunate.

And you could see that, for example, a few weeks ago, German government deported 28 Afghans, and they said they used their contacts in Doha to facilitate this deportation. Everything in Doha in Qatar, which was made for Afghanistan, was actually made to bring peace and stability to the country and to push an intra-Afghan dialogue between the different political players in Afghanistan. It was not meant to use it for Western countries to facilitate deportations, but unfortunately it seems that for many people here right now, this seems to be the most important point. 

Tobias Rohe: So nothing really effective going on in your opinion, right?

Emran Feroz: Absolutely. Unfortunately. 

Tobias Rohe: You, yourself are also a human rights activist. From your perspective, what steps should the international community take? What, what would it need to take to bring about positive and sustainable change in Afghanistan? 

Emran Feroz: I think first of all, international community should understand and accept that it was engaged for 20 years in Afghanistan and did a lot of mistakes, and then it left without taking this responsibility, without accepting it. So first of all, I think they have to acknowledge it. 

Second thing would be to not repeat the same mistakes and somehow engage in the region in a productive way working with grassroots movements, also new movements and not with a lot of the old guys, who are just unfortunately like stealing the money.

I mean, corruption was a main problem in Afghanistan. It still is, but back in the days it was like the main problem. Corruption led to the crash of the Republic. The fall of the Republic was mainly tied to corruption, and I think the international community and also many human rights activists, many human rights organizations who try to work with Afghans, they really have to take a close eye on who they're working with.

There are many people from the old era, and also there are many people who are kind of tied to the Taliban. And just try to apply for things, for grants, for Visa, et cetera. I understand that this is a really difficult approach. I mean, what do you want to do? But I think there is no alternative.

The other alternative would be, what happened so many times in Afghanistan over the last decades and even centuries, you look who is willing to fight against the Taliban and then you send the arms and you know you fuel another war. I think a lot of people are tired of the war of all the wars that took place in the country.

So I think that the solution should not be militarily and even if something happens, if someone inside the country wants to topple the Taliban, which I don't see right now, like no effective force, people are just tired of the war and even. People inside Afghanistan and the International Committee, everyone is tired of the war that took place there.

So you have to find another solution. And for that reason, yeah, it's difficult, but you have to engage. You have to find the right people to talk with. And I noticed also during the last weeks and months that more and more international organizations, they really try to make it better. They try to filter the people they are talking to, inviting to, and I see that there is some kind of little awakening at least, and people try to engage with those who might have some productive ideas for the country. 

Tobias Rohe: As I said, you are a human rights activist yourself. How do you campaign? 

Emran Feroz: The thing is that, as I said, the human rights issue in Afghanistan, the situation is very bad.

So for me, you know, when I go into Afghanistan to do my reporting, it's real difficult because I have to hide myself. I have to hide my work. I have to hide everything. Sometimes I cannot meet the people, although they're just one or two kilometres away from me. So you know, you just talk to them through phone and so on, and make your interviews.

It's really, really depressing. And recently I went to Greece. I met a lot of Afghan refugees there. Also very bad situation. And there's so much to document, you know, what is happening in the country, what is happening through the refugee roots. But it seems that there are no resources for it anymore and nobody's interested in it. And that's depressing. 

But I hope it changed because sooner or later people will see that Afghanistan it part of our daily life. Our world is small, it's like a neighbouring country. Everything that is happening there is impacting us here too. 

Tobias Rohe: Emran Feroz thank you very much for your time and thank you very much for this very interesting interview.

Emran Feroz: Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Tobias Rohe: It's been a pleasure. For all of you who are interested in Emran Feroz's work, just take a look at the show notes. You will find a link to his articles on Quantara.de there, and of course you will find information on his new book. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, don't hesitate to share it with your friends.

We will be delighted about that. And to make sure that you don't miss out on future episodes, subscribe to Die Kulturmittler:innen right away. You can do so. Wherever you listen to the shows of your choice for all other information on the Forum for International Cultural Relations, visit our website at culturalrelations.ifa.de.

That's all from my side. I say thank you for listening. My name is Tobias Rohe. Till next time.